Aladdin Central Messageboard

[Salukfan]

I could quote all of AG's post... but why bother?

I most definitely consider Esmeralda a hero, but I figured I'd keep things simple with just mentioning Phoebus. I think we're differing in our definitions of "hero". Not all characters who do good things are heros, definitely. But I do consider heroic characters to [be] heroes. It may be a semantics issue, but to me, the act of being heroic is equivalent to heroism. I don't think Shang is equal to Mulan as the plot goes, because she is the protagonist and it's her struggle that we're following. But I don't think Shang is less of a hero because he happens to not be the star of this story. It'd be equivalent to saying that Philip isn't a hero because Aurora is the protagonist of the story. I too hate everyone trying to be a hero/the heroification of every person who tries to do some minor bit of good. I think that applies more to the next point.

I agree that Mushu isn't unimportant. He definitely served to motivate Mulan and helped her make it to her final destination. But I don't think the act of friendship/moral support = heroic. It's wonderful and valuable and great, but heroic? Not quite. The scale of Shang's actions definitely effect the line between hero and assistant. I don't think you're calling Mushu a hero for his actions, but my argument came from a point of heroism and yeah.

... I probably shouldn't be typing this during training.
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"This cow's been covered with flour!"

[A Whole New World]

I really don't think Esmeralda is a hero,I actually think she's a damsel in distress (Really,she just waited for Quasimudo to save her).
And no Phillip and Shang aren't heroes,IMO,and they"re not their film's heroes,Aurora and Mulan are the heroes of Sleeping Beauty and Mulan,and,Phoebus isn't a Disney Hero,he wasn't in this line and he shouldn't be,Quasimudo is the hero,and for those of you who said that Shang and Milo weren't in the line:


Can't find a picture of Jim but I saw a picture of him in the line.
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[Salukfan]

Esmeralda? A damsel in distress? What? Are you referring to her burning at the stake and being unable to get away? That's not weak. If you're talking about her in the cathedrial, she already considered escape. I think she would have eventually found a way out with or without Quasi's assistance.

Am I the only one who doesn't follow protagonist = hero? I guess I've spent too much time in literature classes. I mean, Satan is the protagonist of "Paradise Lost" but he damn sure isn't the hero. There can also be more than one hero. Frodo is the overall protagonist of Lord of the Rings, but it's really hard to argue that Aragorn, Samwise, and Gandalf aren't heroes because of that.
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"This cow's been covered with flour!"

[AladdinsGenie]

[Meesh]

Esmerelda may have been in distress, but she was in distress because she stood up for what she believed in. She could have gone against her beliefs succumbed to Frolo's creepy sexual desires to save her life... She also saved Phoebus's life a couple times (I'm thinking specifically when she saved the from Clopin, when she threw a rock at the horses to free him, and when she dove into the river and, both soaking wet, dragged him all the way to the very top of Notre Dame.) She also took on a dozen soldiers, hardly afraid of them, at the Feast of Fools. She prayed for her people above herself. She grabbed Quasimodo when he was falling off of Notre Dame.

There may be more, but that much given...Sounds pretty stinkin' heroic to me

And AG... I can agree with you in that they should target other girls too. The only example of them maybe doing that is the "Power to the Princess Hour" they used to have, where the princesses were depicted as pretty bada** in the commercials.
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[Salukfan]

It's not even the "roles" that bug me about the Princess Collection... it's the alteration of characters for the sake of creating a role. It's taking away Belle's brain to make her a vapid, overly dressed diva. It's making Cinderella a blonde to (I assume) make her more "classic." It's ignoring Aladdin because Jasmine would look "weak"with him as a dominant character.

Disney is making "princess" into a bad thing. It's awful because there are princesses in this world who are not just about dresses and how they look. They're strong and they're trying to make a difference.

It's kind of like how the media seems to care more about what Michelle Obama wears than what she does. Ignoring what's important for stereotypical vanities. It sucks.
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"This cow's been covered with flour!"

[AladdinsGenie]

[Meesh]

[Salukfan]

[AladdinsGenie]

I wasn't trying to change you that he's not! I was just saying that he's a secondary hero to me (because he and Phoebus don't particulary do anything that I wouldn't expect a military person to do even outside of a military situation, even down to defying what they've been taught when that's challenged. That's starting to get so cliche . I'll be honest in saying I think people in the military have to work ten times harder to get to the hero button from me, but I've been poisoned with propaganda ), and if there was a hero collection I'd be surprised if he made it there. For purposes of fanart of an underwear collection, that's fine, but in an actual collection of merchandise, I would just raise my eyebrow a bit to that

Ooh, I do . Especially when they're in a time of need, or written off as a failure and no one will give them a chance or help them. To step up to the bat like that and be there for someone against what everyone else thinks is hard. It does take a lack of selfishness and empathy, something a lot of people (and countries) don't have . But to save someone from a building is the humane thing to me, and that's something everyone should have. I don't expect everyone to have the emotional need to go beyond (what I think should be) instinct. How can someone detatch themselves from the fact that there is a person/your fellow man/a living creature in there, and it's not your gut reaction to try and go help them? How can you just stand there and do nothing? I suppose there's a reason why there's good samaritan laws to encourage people to help . I agree being humane applies (or at least should be applying) for simply helping someone out when they're in need, too, but I think that's a lot harder of a choice to make because no one really wants to invest their time emotionally in someone/something that may or may not even be worth it in the end because that really takes a toll on you at times, but this is probably just me .

Yeah, see, why does he get the villain stamp? Because he made illegal experiments, most of which aren't even dangerous? Ooh, walkin' on the wild side

[Salukfan]

Oh, I wasn't saying that you were. I just realized in the middle of the argument that I couldn't quite articulate why I see him as a hero... simply that I do. Logic, amirite? I think Shang and Phoebus gain hero status from me, not from the overall perspective of heroism in the modern world, but by the power of what they did within their story. Within the story, their actions have impact and are "special," for lack of a better word. I don't think important plot point=heroism. When it comes to film and art forms like it, heroism becomes tied to the whole. I love to know the entire story before I look into and judge a situation, which makes the everyday experience of my own life one hell of a time.

See, I don't necessarily think that's brave. That's situational, of course-- it depends on who's being supported, who the support is, etc. Going back to Mushu for a second, I don't see his support for Mulan as a real choice. His friendship came from necessity-- his only chance to redeem himself was to make Mulan into a star. Of course he grew to care for her and vice versa, but he didn't stand up for her because he felt it was "right." It became instinct for him, once they grew close. He didn't have to make a "choice," if you know what I mean. As I said, that's based on character-- it's a lot harder for characters like Timon, Iago, etc to do that... for them, it is a matter of sacrificing the good life or your own safety to support someone. The character I most think of as being very brave in her support is Esmeralda. Her support for Quasimodo took a hell of a lot of guts... but would she see it that way? I just see it as more subjective than the burning building scenerio. To me, going into a fire is brave as hell. I may come off as selfish in this, but there's no way in hell I'm jumping into a burning building. Now there's a definite exception to that-- someone I love? Yeah, I'll do what I can. A stranger? Not gonna happen. I do think the Beast was right in not letting the beggar woman into his castle, after all. No way am I going to let some nutty-looking old lady into my house, even if I do have the means. That is selflessness, to me, and I think great people have it. The support for a friend thing is a lot less "heroic," despite how wonderful it is.

It drives me nuts that Rourke and Clayton are excluded, though it may be an issues with the Borough's estate for the latter. Magica de Spell and the Beagle Boys get in, but not Rourke? Come now. You can do better than that.
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"This cow's been covered with flour!"

[Meesh]

I wonder if for those two it has anything to do with their appearance? They are both well-built presentable men who are gunhappy... It might not be the "ideal?" image for a promotable villain?

I don't know. Just a thought?
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[Meesh]

[AladdinsGenie]

Yeah, I think I just apply real life situations with story contexts cause in a story sense they're almost classic war heroes, but in real life I wouldn't be impressed by anything they did at all

Well, yeah, initially with Mushu he couldn't really stand up for Mulan because he doesn't know Mulan/the ancestors don't know he's off to help make her a war hero . He saw there was an opportunity for himself and took it. He doesn't really come off to me as doing anything particularly great until he starts to be there for her when she needed him/some support when he starts to befriend her because he really didn't have to get close to her at all on that level. He could have been there to support her, but kept his own personal feelings he was developing out of it, too, and just made sure she became a war hero so he can get his job back. If he didn't relate to Mulan and wasn't seen as a failure like she was, that relationship would probably be a lot different.
I think Esmeralda was brave as well, but I think she knew what she did took guts not because she saved him, that was a no duh moment (or at least I think was a no duh moment, I don't know. I'm learning I have radical thoughts ), but because of the consequences she knew was going to come afterwards . As much as there shouldn't have been a consquence for that, she still called Frollo out for what was happening and still helped Quasi despite Frollo telling her not to. I think she was fairly confident she could get away, too, once he did send guards after her and she examined the situation, but she risked even that for the greater good of someone else.

But I do think it's situational to an extent. I just don't think people have the same emotional calling to be a real friend in need (especially like you said depending on their character because people don't like giving up their own stability, emotional or not. That's why when you do I think that's awesome and merits celebration ) than they do to help someone off-hand. That's why I thought it was a lot more heroic than doing something I THOUGHT was a common trait we all shared like helping our fellow man if they're in trouble like that, but I am quickly seeing through a poll of my family and a few other people, I am putting too much faith in humanity again, or at least applying what I thought was common sense in thinking that if someone was in a burning building it would be a natural...instinct, choice, obvious answer, reaction, something! to immediately try and save them no matter what. We gotta know people to help them now? I gotta update my data bank
And Beast was just being a poo head there. I never liked that part as a child, I always rewound past it to get to the opening title . There were nicer ways to handle that than "GTFO H0R", especially because he was turning her away because of her appearance and was giving him a measly rose. If she was a young, hot, soaking wet female that was giving him diamonds in exchange for a room and shelter, would he have done the same thing? I'm thinking not and it's usually the good-looking people that end up being the serial killers because we take them for granted and they're aware of that

And I thought Clayton was Tarzan's real name, not the name of some poacher that I don't even think is in the original book, right? I thought that was Disney's way of getting around that . And wow, they use Ducktales canon? I'm shocked.

[Salukfan]

And I crush on thieves and rogues on TV/Film and am generally disgusted by them in real life. It's all relative, baby.

I don't think all characters choose to grow close to other people, though. I don't go through this process of "hmm, she seems nice. I will now be open and care for her" whenever I make a new friend, you know? I think it's something that just happens. Now, you choose to ignore the feeling... but I don't think the opposite reaction to friendship is a deliberate/methodical choice for all people.

For Esmeralda, saving Quasi was a no brainer moment, yes. To me, that's huge. Yeah, she felt confident, but damn I would have thought twice. This is why I'm not a hero.

The "probability that I'm going to die" overwhelms my desire to help someone. I'd pull out my phone and try to call someone. But nearly killing myself to help someone? No. That's why they advise us to put our own oxygen masks first before helping somebody else. I don't think that makes me selfish toward my fellow man; I just don't think jumping into a fire and getting two people killed is productive. Basically, I'll help someone if the odds of me dying don't overwhelm the odds of my success. I don't mean to make this overly personal, but I know you have some issues with water... if you see someone drowning, will you dive in?

I admire people who can do this stuff. I'm not one of them.

And, eh, this probably shows how much of an ass I am... but I'm still with the Prince. Yeah, he's a douche to the old woman, but I'd probably react the same way. Old man, young man, young woman, old woman... my house is my house. I'd try to be nicer to her, but that's because I'm not straight up id and can control that stuff sometimes. My natural reaction, though, would be Beast's.

Yeah, Tarzan's name is Clayton. I wish the Disney character would get some love. And yes, there's Ducktales canon. Too bad we couldn't get Abis Mal in the game. That would rule.
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"This cow's been covered with flour!"