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I have Cassim on the brain
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Salukfan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:37 pm    Post subject: I have Cassim on the brain Reply with quote

I'm sitting here trying to muse some fanfiction, and I have Cassim on the brain. And when Cassim is on my mind, Sa'luk is there by association.

A few points are brewing in this little mind of mine ...

1. How much of Cassim's dialogue to Aladdin about leaving his family do you think is actually true?

2. Is Cassim a hypocrite?

3. Would the group be better off with Cassim or Sa'luk as king?
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Nez
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting points.

Quote:
3. Would the group be better off with Cassim or Sa'luk as king?


*Thinking about that song*

It's kinda debatable. Cassim was shot down as being idealistic and "soft", while Sa'luk sold out 31 out of 40 of his fellow thieves to get back Cassim.

I'm probably babbling at this point. Don't mind me.
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Sadira
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very interesting topic. I thought that Cassim was telling the truth.I never considered that he might be lying. I think Cassim would be a better king than Saluk.He actually cares about the other men in the group.I don`t think that makes him weak.In a way, Cassim is sort of a hypocrite.He doesn`t take responsiblity for his actions like Aladdin. Aladdin goes back to set things right, no matter what may happen.He has a stronger moral code than his father.
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Salukfan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answering her own questions.... OH RIGHT!

1. How much of Cassim's dialogue to Aladdin about leaving his family do you think is actually true?

I don't think a lot of it is. Just judging by Cassim's defensiveness in other areas of the film (outside the Palace and in the cavern), I don't think he'd be so quick to reveal himself to Aladdin. He looks for all kinds of attempts to victimize himself in KOT- I've often wondered what kind of stuff he told Jasmine and Sultan when he was with them off-camera- and I think this is just another attempt at it. My theories have gone from him never going back to Agrabah, to killing his wife himself, among others.

2. Is Cassim a hypocrite?

Hypocrite might be too strong a word for what I'm going for here, but yes, I think he is. Perhaps I'm looking for naive... his whole "never hurt the innocent" theme is contradicted by a lot of what he does in the story. The wedding raid (not to mention the elephant stampede), and the way he manipulates Aladdin work to disprove him. Now, perhaps his idea of hurting someone else is limited to death, which shows that he really isn't aware of his own actions and the big picture.

3. Would the group be better off with Cassim or Sa'luk as king?

I think it might be my Sa'luk bias talking here, but I think Sa'luk would be a better king. At least, he'd be better in the regard of the group at it's purest form. Cassim is weak in that respect- he can't be the sort of tough king that I think Sultan thinks about when he thinks of the Forty Thieves (The kind of king that we see in the original story). I see Sa'luk's betray as a sign of his loyalty to the group. He respects the reputation of the group more than Cassim does, IMO.
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AladdinsGenie
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1.I think those BS skills definitely run in the family. I think what he told Aladdin is what he wanted to do. At that point, Aladdin was a wee bit perturbed that his father just watched him risk his life to live, especially after he just "saved" his when Sa'luk was ready to slice n' dice him. I guess he figured that his father would have found another way to spare him from the wrath of the 40 thieves considering he is the king and just found his only son that was at the risk of dying. So, telling Aladdin something like along the lines of "I did go back for you guys" would give him a bit more of a sympathetic look, which worked because part of me wants to believe it's true, but the other part doesn't think it is. It's still up in the air, but for right now no, I don't think it was true. Especially since he said he would have done anything to get Aladdin's mother back. Did he forget what she looks like? That's a lie, lol.

2. Hypocrite is such a, such a strong word, lol. To me, I think the line "we never hurt the innocent" is a little ironic.
The thieves didn't hurt any of those innocent rich folks, but the thieves weren't innocent considering they were doing the raid, so a few of them got "physically" hurt when Genie zapped a few.
Aladdin rescued his father by defying the Sultan's orders, so he is not innocent in that situation. Therefore, he got hurt when Cassim decided to run away and walk out on him again. But, that's just me and my constant quest to find/make everything an irony or ironic.

3. Even though I know this will never happen, they should jointly run the KoT since they both do it anyway. Sa'luk is more about tradition and history because apparently what the 40 thieves were was special to him. It's pretty hard to be a big guy running around with guys who sing songs with pink ribbons. I think it's important to know where you come from because it makes up who you are. Sa'luk is like that one guy that wants things to go back to how they were because it looked better for him because he fit in better to that former role rather than the one that Cassim has them in now. Cassim to me, when he has on his 40 thieves outfit, is as if he is putting on a new role-Cassim: The King and Leader of the Forty Thieves, and for that I say he is more about pride and stature. As he mentioned in the film, he wanted a better life for his family and couldn't get it. So him being able to preside over a group of people, to me, is like him filling that gap of being able to provide for someone else that he couldn't do for his family, and I'd say he is pretty proud of that and what he has accomplished. He changed how people saw things, and showed them that being ruthless cutthroats isn't the only way to gain respect, yet have people fear you. The former reputation of the past thieves (cause I think it's a generation thing) was enough. "Worse than demons; these are the 40 thieves." That reputation lives on without enforcing it. Now if there was a way to balance both tradition/history and pride/stature, all would be well. But since it isn't, catastrophic hell will break lose. So, my answer is either one would make a fine king to me because they both have qualities that a king needs to be.


Last edited by AladdinsGenie on Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nez
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*claps*

Very good points all of you guys.

I can't really add anything to the discusion. Sad
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Salukfan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1.I think those BS skills definitely run in the family. I think what he told Aladdin is what he wanted to do. At that point, Aladdin was a wee bit perturbed that his father just watched him risk his life to live, especially after he just "saved" his when Sa'luk was ready to slice n' dice him. I guess he figured that his father would have found another way to spare him from the wrath of the 40 thieves considering he is the king and just found his only son that was the risk of dying. So, telling Aladdin something like along the lines of "I did go back for you guys" would give him a bit more of a sympathetic look, which worked because part of me wants to believe it's true, but the other part doesn't think it is. It's still up in the air, but for right now no, I don't think it was true. Especially since he said he would have done anything to get Aladdin's mother back. Did he forget what she looks like? That's a lie, lol.


Lol, that is one UGLY bitch!

And I think Aladdin's anger was less directed at Cassim's action of the challenge (as it was about the only way to save him... Sa'luk would have diced Aladdin, doubtless), but more so at the fact that Aladdin (thought he) killed Sa'luk. Aladdin has only "killed" a few individuals, and never by direct contact. I'm thinking Aziz and the Shaman only. He doesn't seem to get really pissed until he sees that dagger in the rock on the way up. Of course, it's also a mix of the irrational expectations he had for Cassim going into that lair... You know, I really thought I was going somewhere with that... or did I reach it?

Quote:
2. Hypocrite is such a, such a strong word, lol. To me, I think the line "we never hurt the innocent" is a little ironic. The thieves didn't hurt any of those innocent rich folks, but the thieves weren't innocent considering they were doing the raid, so a few of them got "physically" hurt when Genie zapped a few. Aladdin rescued his father by defying the Sultan's orders, so he is not innocent in that situation. Therefore, he got hurt when Cassim decided to run away and walk out on him again. But, that's just me and my constant quest to find/make everything an irony or ironic.


I think the irony you're hinting at is a big motivating factor for Sa'luk and his opinion of Cassim's leadership. But more on that in part three.

The real problem with trying to discuss this is that we don't know what Cassim defines as "innocent". A moment I keep referring to in trying to answer this question has been the way he talks to Aladdin in the cavern. "You don't know what it's like to have nothing. To stare up at the palace and know you deserve more. To be called street rat." He comes off as bitter in that moment. Perhaps he sees the wealthy in general as being *guilty* of the crime of not allowing him social growth and keeping him down? His statement might just be referring to ignoring larger raids, in cities more filled with lower class citizens? I don't think this came out as I wanted it too, but I'm just trying to hit the point that his definition of innocence could be mutated/corrupted.

Quote:
3. Even though I know this will never happen, they should jointly run the KoT since they both do it anyway. Sa'luk is more about tradition and history because apparently what the 40 thieves were was special to him. It's pretty hard to be a big guy running around with guys who sing songs with pink ribbons. I think it's important to know where you come from because it makes up who you are. Sa'luk is like that one guy that wants things to go back to how they were because it looked better for him because he fit in better to that former role rather than the one that Cassim has them in now. Cassim to me, when he has on his 40 thieves outfit, is as if he is putting on a new role-Cassim: The King and Leader of the Forty Thieves, and for that I say he is more about pride and stature. As he mentioned in the film, he wanted a better life for his family and couldn't get it. So him being able to preside over a group of people, to me, is like him filling that gap of being able to provide for someone else that he couldn't do for his family, and I'd say he is pretty proud of that and what he has accomplished. He changed how people saw things, and showed them that being ruthless cutthroats isn't the only way to gain respect, yet have people fear you. The former reputation of the past thieves (cause I think it's a generation thing) was enough. "Worse than demons; these are the 40 thieves." That reputation lives on without enforcing it. Now if there was a way to balance both tradition/history and pride/stature, all would be well. But since it isn't, catastrophic hell will break lose. So, my answer is either one would make a fine king to me because they both have qualities that a king needs to be.


But how long can the reputation thrive without Cassim adding anything to it? Not to go off-tangent, but I disagree the theory that Cassim was king right away, which I've seen in some fanfictions. I see the Forty Thieves as more military-like, with seconds-in-command, a system of rank, etc. The whole idea of "kill the king and become the king" is insane to me. I don't think that challenge the King would be that accepted. It seems likes Cassim took a defacto vote about the Challenge, which implies some level of democracy. But back to the point.

I agree with you that a combination of the two in the position of authority would be the best way to go. I think the main reason it doesn't happen is Cassim's attitude toward the power. The whole picture-on-the-wall thing does it to me. He thinks he's God to these men or something. His power over them isn't so much a sign of a desire to care, IMO, as it is a sign of his desire to be admired. He wants adulation for himself, not what's best for the group. And Sa'luk appears to be the only one who has the balls to call him on it. Sa'luk has more humility; he doesn't stand over the code, editing to suit whatever moral fiber that guides him, but instead seems to want the power to reinforce it; he bows to it, not the other way around.

I'm honestly not sure how to read Cassim's line about the group. "They're my family... my only family. I can always count on them." Count on them how? To admire him? To give him praise no matter what he does? To do a bit of a paraphrase from Lilo and Stitch, Cassim needs to put on some humble shoes.
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Calluna
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: I have Cassim on the brain Reply with quote

I'll forgive you, because I know you're coming at this from a pro-Sa'luk angle, and not an anti-anyone-who-ever-hurt-Aladdin-even-unintentionally one. Wink

SalukFan wrote:
1. How much of Cassim's dialogue to Aladdin about leaving his family do you think is actually true?
I wouldn't say he's lying, per se, except by omission. He's basically trying to defend his actions to Aladdin, so he's not going to say anything that will make him look bad. I think it's interesting what he doesn't say. It's just, "I was poor, I wanted the best for my family, yadda yadda yadda, I'm really sorry." I suspect IRL that this is just a huge plot hole Mark and Bob were hoping no one would notice.

SalukFan wrote:
2. Is Cassim a hypocrite?


About the "never hurt the innnocent" bit? Well, I don't think he thinks he is, but that's obviously debatable. Maybe he thinks it's okay as long as you don't kill them. Maybe he thinks it's okay to rob the rich (he seems pretty defensive about the fact that he used to be poor).

SalukFan wrote:
3. Would the group be better off with Cassim or Sa'luk as king?


Well, we all seem to be assuming that Sa'luk is telling the truth when he says he wants to restore the former glory of the Forty Thieves. We only ever see him say that when he's convincing the others to join his side.

I guess it depends whether you think the end justifies the means. Sa'luk sold out the majority of the thieves and lied to the rest in order to make himself king. I seriously doubt the remaining thieves would be following him if they knew the truth, even if they did think Cassim was soft. They'd all be wondering if it was them who'd be next to be sacrificed.

SalukFan wrote:
Now, perhaps his idea of hurting someone else is limited to death, which shows that he really isn't aware of his own actions and the big picture.
I really wish I wasn't the only Terry Pratchett fan around here, because this reminds me so much of something from Going Postal. Wink

SalukFan wrote:
"You don't know what it's like to have nothing. To stare up at the palace and know you deserve more. To be called street rat."

Now *that* is the part that doesn't make sense to me. If Cassim was a streetrat, and the reason he left was because his family was poor and he wanted to do something about it, and Cassim was unsuccessful, then why the HELL does he think Aladdin doesn't know what it's like to be a streetrat? If all those things are true, Aladdin would have *had* to have been a streetrat.

Either Cassim thought Aladdin and his mom had some kind of financial support while he was gone, or he knew Aladdin really was poor and was trying to gain sympathy points. And the first theory is contradicted by the fact that Cassim didn't seem surprised by the fact that Aladdin, too, was a streetrat (there was no, "What? What happened to your rich uncles Ben and Ali Baba?"). And add to that the fact that Aladdin is famous: once he knows his son is *that* Aladdin, isn't it well known what Aladdin's background is? How could he not know?
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Salukfan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'll forgive you, because I know you're coming at this from a pro-Sa'luk angle, and not an anti-anyone-who-ever-hurt-Aladdin-even-unintentionally one. Wink


I'm more on the pro-Cassim side than I am the pro-Sa'luk sign... I think. Well, I like Cassim more than Sa'luk... I think. *Shrugs* But I was really, really brutal to Cassim. Heh heh... :/

*Cough* So, anyway...

Quote:
I suspect IRL that this is just a huge plot hole Mark and Bob were hoping no one would notice.


They weren't counting on the jolly obsesser, who even now races to rescue the film from flaw...

Quote:

Well, we all seem to be assuming that Sa'luk is telling the truth when he says he wants to restore the former glory of the Forty Thieves. We only ever see him say that when he's convincing the others to join his side.

I guess it depends whether you think the end justifies the means. Sa'luk sold out the majority of the thieves and lied to the rest in order to make himself king. I seriously doubt the remaining thieves would be following him if they knew the truth, even if they did think Cassim was soft. They'd all be wondering if it was them who'd be next to be sacrificed.


This is a damn good point. It is a bit of wayward assumption... I have my fanon reasons for it, but I'm interested in why anyone else thinks he's being honest. *Nudge*

And I don't think the Forty Thieves are loyal to Cassim himself- they're loyal to his title. They jump on the Sa'luk train really fast. All Sa'luk has to do is prove that he can "handle" them. Loyalty isn't a huge focus- look at the way they embrace Aladdin after the challege. All the men were pro-Sa'luk, then it's all about Aladdin. Hell, the men were even willing to have a Sa'luk-led group before Aladdin showed up.

Quote:
Now *that* is the part that doesn't make sense to me. If Cassim was a streetrat, and the reason he left was because his family was poor and he wanted to do something about it, and Cassim was unsuccessful, then why the HELL does he think Aladdin doesn't know what it's like to be a streetrat? If all those things are true, Aladdin would have *had* to have been a streetrat.


This baffles me too. Maybe it can be argued in favor of selfishness on Cassim's part? That he felt victimized, and thus the way he victimized his family didn't really occur to him. I tend to lead toward a more greed-based theory, myself. Cassim may have been "wealthy" enough to get by. Not rich by any means, but he could have supported them. But he wanted more. He wanted to be of really high status. Think Aladdin in "Raiders" for where I'm going. Now, there's also a thought I've had about Cassim marrying rich- not to completely steal a growth from Aladdin, but Cassim might have wanted money of his own. He expect them to be rich. They would survive on the mother's money. But something happened to it after Cassim left. *Shrugs*

Quote:
And add to that the fact that Aladdin is famous: once he knows his son is *that* Aladdin, isn't it well known what Aladdin's background is? How could he not know?


But he didn't realize that Genie existed until Aladdin actually took him to the palace either. That seems awkward to me. How could he not have any clue about Genie? And don't the Forty Thieves talk to each other? Wouldn't Cassim have asked why Sa'luk pulled the group out of the wedding raid? Plot-hole city, I'm tellin' ya.
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AladdinsGenie
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SalukFan wrote:

But he didn't realize that Genie existed until Aladdin actually took him to the palace either. That seems awkward to me. How could he not have any clue about Genie?


That's about as screwy as Genie always having to grow legs or turn into a human around civilians. They can't possibly think he is just a giant blue Agrabanian..do they?
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Salukfan
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's about as screwy as Genie always having to grow legs or turn into a human around civilians. They can't possibly think he is just a giant blue Agrabanian..do they?


There's total inconsistancy with the way Genie is played. Sometimes, they hide him from everyone. Other times, they let him go as himself. I don't know if it's supposed to represent growth or whatnot, but... *Shrugs*
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AladdinsGenie886 wrote:
That's about as screwy as Genie always having to grow legs or turn into a human around civilians. They can't possibly think he is just a giant blue Agrabanian..do they?
I'm trying to remember when this happened. The only two I remember were in Never Say Nefir (non-Agrabanians, and Genie was actually flesh-colored) and Fowl Weather (maybe the fact that it was a child and they didn't want to freak him out?).

Of course, both of those eps seem pretty early to me...

I'm wondering if he was blue and had legs most people would jump to some other conclusion other than that he was a genie. Kahveed and Yani took a lot of convincing before they were sure he wasn't "just" a sorcerer. Razz
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calluna wrote:
AladdinsGenie886 wrote:
That's about as screwy as Genie always having to grow legs or turn into a human around civilians. They can't possibly think he is just a giant blue Agrabanian..do they?
I'm trying to remember when this happened. The only two I remember were in Never Say Nefir (non-Agrabanians, and Genie was actually flesh-colored) and Fowl Weather (maybe the fact that it was a child and they didn't want to freak him out?).

Of course, both of those eps seem pretty early to me...

I'm wondering if he was blue and had legs most people would jump to some other conclusion other than that he was a genie. Kahveed and Yani took a lot of convincing before they were sure he wasn't "just" a sorcerer. Razz


Random and late, but it was in "Moonlight Madness" too when he comes out as the Chiquita Banana woman and Aladdin makes him grow legs. Still odd to me.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AladdinsGenie886 wrote:
Random and late, but it was in "Moonlight Madness" too when he comes out as the Chiquita Banana woman and Aladdin makes him grow legs. Still odd to me.
Because a blue Carmen Miranda? Perfectly normal. Razz
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bringing this thread back from the dead, even if it isn't a pretty picture. Wink

I was just thinking about the end where Cassim throws the Hand of Midas to Sa'luk and turns him to gold... do you think he intended to do that? Or was he trying to give it away? Or was it a gamble?
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